Wednesday, October 22, 2008

'Catholic Right' in Near Meltdown


Tough Times for the Catholic Right


by Chris Korzen




Right wing Catholic groups celebrated earlier this month when Scranton bishop Joseph Martino ordered his priests to read a letter at Mass tacitly proclaiming that it was immoral for Catholics to vote for Obama. Things have been going south for them ever since.

These organizations - groups like Bill Donohue's Catholic League, Deal Hudson's InsideCatholic.com, Fidelis, and Catholic Answers - had hoped this year for a reprise of 2004, when independent Catholic voters propelled Bush to victory in Ohio. Once again, they dumped millions into advertising and media campaigns in an attempt to convince Catholics that abortion is the overriding issue at the ballot box.

But this time around, the faithful aren't buying it. According to the polls, Catholics have consistently named the economy as the number one concern affecting their votes this year. As E.J. Dionne wrote in his Washington Post column yesterday, "Catholics, who are quintessential swing voters and gave narrow but crucial support to President Bush in 2004, are drifting toward Barack Obama. And this time, some church leaders are suggesting that single-issue voting is by no means a Catholic commandment." Indeed, this week both Los Angeles Auxiliary Bishop Gambino Zavala and Memphis Bishop J. Terry Steib cautioned against approaches to Catholic voting that overlook key social justice concerns.

Like so many things, saying that a candidate's position on abortion makes him or her unfit for the Catholic vote works better in theory than practice. The Catholic right's message loses its effectiveness when voters realize it uses the same logic that impelled Catholic voters to re-elect Bush in 2004 - whose presidency turned out to be a disaster for Catholic values and the nation as a whole. Republican apologists like Deal Hudson conveniently avoid this recent history. But as Melinda Henneberger points out on Slate.com, Catholic voters in Pennsylvania remember all-too-well the past eight years.

A subtle but key shift in the Democrats' abortion messaging has played a key role in changing the Catholic political landscape. While continuing to affirm its traditional pro-choice legal stance, under Obama's leadership the party has embraced abortion reduction measures that provide health care, child care, education, and other essential supports for vulnerable pregnant women. Despite criticism from the right, it's a message that resonates remarkably well with the swing electorate - Catholic or otherwise. Obama's independent voter dials hit the roof when he answered the abortion question in the third debate; McCain's flatlined.

The Catholic right is also flummoxed by a resurgence of Catholic organizing around social justice issues like war, health care, and the economy. Groups such as Pax Christi USA, Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, and Catholics United have a long way to go before they match the money, members, and infrastructure of the right's machine. Nonetheless, they have managed to keep up with their competition this year, reaching millions of Catholics through TV and radio ads, direct mail pieces, phone banks, and local press coverage. "Progressive Catholics have finally gotten their act together," Brian St. Paul, editor of Crisis Magazine and InsideCatholic.com told Religion News Service's Daniel Burke this month. "They are more organized and effective. Certainly they are a force."

In an outrageous display of just how desperate the right has become, Catholic League president William Donohue seized this week on "shocking" revelations that Catholics in Alliance had received grant money from George Soros' Open Society Institute. Right wing media organizations like InsideCatholic, Catholic News Agency, and LifeNews.com fell over themselves to report on this "evidence" that the group promotes a left-wing anti-Catholic agenda, only to find, embarrassingly, that OSI supports an agenda often very much in line with Catholic teaching, and has funded programs of Catholic Charities USA, Catholic Relief Services, the Catholic Legal Immigration Network, and many dioceses of the Catholic Church. It was not one of the right's finer moments.

The Catholic right isn't on the ropes quite yet. On Sunday, the Washington Post reported on the movement's redoubled efforts to sway Pennsylvania Catholic voters over the abortion issue, and it will be back to make a splash in the 2010 and 2012 elections - especially if the economy turns around. Regardless of who wins on November 4th, however, it's likely the Catholic right won't be able to claim victory - a remarkable turn of events from four years ago.

38 comments:

shiloh said...

"The Catholic right is also flummoxed by a resurgence of Catholic organizing around social justice issues like war, health care, and the economy."

Indeed, the Catholic right is totally flummoxed! So much so, that like McZero they are flustered, erratic, and have certainly lost their way. How else can one explain the many anti Obama posters posting on this blog, which is named: CATHOLICS FOR OBAMA - BIDEN.

Doesn't make much sense to post on Katherine's blog if you are totally against Obama, eh ;) although it is somewhat amusing to see the hate mongers wallowing in their negativity, much like McBush.

Yes, just to be clear, this is a CATHOLICS FOR OBAMA - BIDEN blog, so if you like McLame please use the GOOGLE and one should have no problem finding a pro McSame/Palin blog ...

take care, blessings

p.s. Yes it's true, pro Obama sites/blogs are just so much more positive and entertaining that naturally republican/conservative trolls are attracted away for their totally negative conservative blogs ... like lemmings to the sea they are searching for that positive message!

Yes indeed, total negativity!

Spread the GOOD NEWS!

Vero Possumus!

ciao

sean said...

Amen, Shiloh! They have nothing to contribute to a civil discussion and its shows.

Kurt said...

The mere presence on earth of Catholic who would say they plan to vote for Obama as brought out a mean and ugly face of the 'Catholic Right' which has only hurt their cause. These are people who get their jollies from using the patina of religion to give them the green light to engage in uncharitable, mean-spirited and sometimes racist behavior. They are effective at whipping themselves up into a frenzy which simply pushes the moderate and undecided element to our side.

I guess we should be grateful for their efforts.

Rustler45 said...

"But this time around, the faithful aren't buying it."

You mean liberals, not faithful. Another lie.

"According to the polls..."

We've already been around the pike on "the polls." They are a set up and nothing more than leftist propaganda.

"Catholics have consistently named the economy as the number one concern affecting their votes this year."

That's another lie. Any Catholic who puts the economy ahead of the moral issues should just go be a Baptist and quit claiming to be Catholic.

shiloh said...

Rust, once again, why soooo BITTER ?!?

Just chill like sister Sarah !!!

take care, blessings

Rustler45 said...

Shyster, Your profile indicates you have an interest in The Truth. Explain to me how any liberal can ever be interested in truth. Liberalism by nature is the belief that a person has a right to believe that which is not true. Catholicism is the religion of Jesus Christ who said He is the Truth. Catholicism therefore is at odds with liberalism. Liberalism believes that you can hold contradicting opinions of right and wrong and still be sane. Sean, that idea in itself makes YOU insane.

Sean, you're not really interested in Truth. You're interested in BS and calling it truth. It's called rationalizing Sean. It's a mental disorder.

Remember? Tricia let the cat out of the bag. She said, "My fellow Catholics look at me in disbelief when they find out that I support Obama." I suggest you quit calling Tricia's "fellow" (i.e., normal) Catholics "right wing" in order to justify your left wing membership.

No Sean, I am not bitter. Nauseated is more like it. I am nauseated and disgusted with childish adults who call themselves Catholic yet deny the Truth of The Catholic Church and then project hate and fear onto real Catholics for being Catholic.

Shyster, I know that in your liberal mind the above does not compute. Now please explain to me WHY it does not compute?

shiloh said...

Rust, your profile is hidden. What are you hiding? You must be ashamed oh your life, eh.

So you are bitter and nauseated! Help is available brother, you just have to seek the truth! and be ENLIGHTENED!

Obama has a BIG TENT! Everyone is welcome to join ...

take care, blessings

diane said...

Last I checked, the CCC doesn't tie EXCOMMUNICATION to the economy, the war or health care, but 2272 does discuss EXCOMMUNICATION when dealing with abortion. Hmmmmm??? What is the graver issue??

catie said...

People who are rabidly anti-Obama because of the abortion issue are myopic and intellectually lazy. Studies have shown that the kinds of policies that Obama wants to push through would reduce the rates of abortion. Education and healthcare, for instance. Poverty and abortion are inherently intertwined. In fact, abortion disproportionately affects poor minorities. Outlawing abortion doesn't fix the glaring flaws in our society that lead women to abortion.

CatholicsForDemocracy said...

"Last I checked, the CCC doesn't tie EXCOMMUNICATION to the economy, the war or health care, but 2272 does discuss EXCOMMUNICATION when dealing with abortion. Hmmmmm??? What is the graver issue??"

When CCC first came out, some bishops complained that it may be inappropriate for a catechism that relies on deeper philosophical concepts and language to be presented to those not educated in those educated in those particular disciplines. The concern was that the catechism would be misinterpreted. Here is the perfect example of those bishops' concerns.

The catechism, and Canon Law, both say that anyone who procurs or performs an abortion is automatically excommunicated. Following from that, anyone who provides formal assistance to abortion is excommunicated.

Nowhere in the catechism nor in canon law is it anywhere suggested that 'material support' to abortion is comparable to 'formal support'.

Are you confused? Probably so. That's why you should probably not be presenting yourself as a moral authority.

CatholicsForDemocracy said...

"People who are rabidly anti-Obama because of the abortion issue are myopic and intellectually lazy."

Not only are they intellectually lazy, they are also ideologically empty. The McCain camp and those who support him have no positive agenda to offer the American people. The only thing they have is the ability to scare and bully people after voting for the camp who does.

shiloh said...

Rustler45 said...

I don't like to brag. If my words aren't good enough then my education and experience are of no value.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rust, to be sure, you don't brag, especially since you have nothing to brag about brother. Although you do try to dominate the discussion at Katherine's pro Obama blog w/your bitter/nauseating spamming. Very sad!

And no, your kindergarten vocabulary is, in fact, a true indication of your lack of education and experience.

Feel free to continue your bitter/nauseating spamming ie constant posting of negative inanity as any kindergarten kid is apt to do.

OK, I apologize to the many kindergarten students whom are smarter and better behaved than Rust ...

take care, blessings

shiloh said...

Rust, your bitter/nauseating negative SPAMMING posts continue to disappear. Go figure!

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ~ Albert Einstein

take care, blessings

Rustler45 said...

Here Catty Catty!!!

Where are you Catty?

Anonymous said...

Can you ban IPs? I'd suggest banning Rustler's because he does not have a well thought out argument. All it is is name calling and other logical fallacies.

joanna said...

If Rustler is a real Catholic, I want to be any kind of Catholic he isn't, i.e. a cultural Catholic, a cafeteria Catholic, a John 23rd Catholic, an inclusive Catholic, a non Pharisee Catholic, a consciencious Catholic, a Catholic Democrat, and most importantly, a Catholic for Obama. Pope John 23rd said that one's conscience is the ultimate guide in living life in an ethical way. He even freed Catholics not to be Catholics. What a great man!

Florentius said...

Wishful thinking, Katherine. I think you're going to have a long night on November 4....

Bishop Rene H. Gracida's Obama Ad

walker said...

So there are all these issues to consider before voting - the economy, war, poverty, immigration, etc. And suppose in the discussion, everywhere you find the word 'abortion', you substitute in the word 'slavery', would you still vote the same way ? "Yes, it is something I disagree with, but I wouldn't want to impose my views on other people. There are other issues just as important to consider."

Katherine said...

So there are all these issues to consider before voting - the economy, war, poverty, immigration, etc. And suppose in the discussion, everywhere you find the word 'abortion', you substitute in the word 'slavery', would you still vote the same way ? "Yes, it is something I disagree with, but I wouldn't want to impose my views on other people. There are other issues just as important to consider."

Are you suggesting no faithful Catholic could have voted for George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson or Stephen Douglas?

Rustler45 said...

JOANNA THE PRETEND CATHOLIC SAID: "If Rustler is a real Catholic, I want to be any kind of Catholic he isn't...."

You don't have a single worry. You'll always be a sorry liberal Marxist axxhole. I bet your husband hides in the children's toy closet when he hears you coming. On second thought you probably don't have children. I certainly hope not. Please tie your tubes. We don't need you in the gene pool.

Rustler45 said...

50 Bishops Say Abortion Most Important Issue in U.S. Election

By Thaddeus M. Baklinski

October 24, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - With only days remaining before the November 4 U.S. election, a tally has shown that over a quarter of America's bishops have published articles, issued statements or given interviews where they have declared that the most important issue for voters in their choice of a new president is the candidate’s stance on abortion.

The tally was put together by well-known Catholic journalist and blogger Rocco Palmo, and published in The Tablet, a Catholic periodical (See Rocco’s article here: http://www.thetablet.co.uk/article/12189).

Catholics across the nation have taken the message pro-life to heart, as their pastors have repeatedly called on them to make the right to life the defining issue and to vote accordingly.

Bishop Robert Hermann of St. Louis wrote in the archdiocesan newspaper last Friday that "the issue of life is the most basic issue and must be given priority over the issue of the economy, the issue of war or any other issue."

"Saving our children or killing our children. This," wrote the Bishop Hermann in the St. Louis Review, "is the overriding issue facing each of us. All other issues ... have to take second place to the issue of life."

Bishop Robert Finn of Kansas City-St Joseph wrote in his diocesan newspaper that "despite hardship, beyond partisanship, for the sake of our eternal salvation," Catholic voters "should never" support a candidate who favours the continued legalisation of abortion.

Bishops Kevin J. Farrell of Dallas and Keven W. Vann of Fort Worth issued a pastoral letter on October 8 which singled out abortion as the "preeminent intrinsic evil of our day," and again stressed that all other rights originate in the right to life.

"It is impossible to further the common good without acknowledging and defending the right to life, upon which all the other inalienable rights of individuals are founded and from which they develop," the bishops wrote.

Archbishop Charles Chaput of Denver made national headlines when he described Barack Obama as "the most committed abortion-rights presidential candidate of either major party since the Roe v. Wade abortion decision."

Archbishop Chaput later said that those Catholics who promote Obama as "this year's ‘real' pro-life candidate," are under a "peculiar kind of self-hypnosis, or moral confusion, or worse."

The determination of these bishops to reach Catholic voters appears to be paying off.

Investor's Business Daily and the TechnoMetrica Institute of Policy and Politics (IBD/TIPP) has released a tracking poll that shows a dramatic shift in opinion that may be a result of the bishops' guidance to their flocks.

IBD/TIPP reported on Thursday that McCain, who has repeatedly declared his pro-life stance on abortion, has cut into Obama's lead for a second day in a row and is now just 1.1 points behind. The spread was 3.7 on Wednesday and 6.0 on Tuesday.

Of particular note, however, the poll also shows that John McCain has gone from an 11-point deļ¬cit to a 9-point lead over Barack Obama among Catholic voters.

According to the Drudge Report, IBD/TIPP was the most accurate pollster for the 2004 election.

Read related LifeSiteNews.com articles:

U.S. Bishops Come out Swinging against Abortion, Pro-Abort Politicians
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/oct/08101706.html

Texas Bishops: Abortion is the "Defining Issue" of This Election
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/oct/08101509.html

Rustler45 said...

"there may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate's unacceptable position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons. Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental moral evil." --Bishop Steib

OK folks, this statement by Bishop Steib means that you can vote for McCain. It DOES NOT ALLOW you to vote for Obama since on every single issue Obama fails the Catholic test of morallity.

You lose.

Rustler45 said...

QUOTED BY SHYSTER: "The Catholic right is also flummoxed by a resurgence of Catholic organizing around social justice issues like war, health care, and the economy."

Shyster, the idiot that wrote that is a dunce and a liar. First there is no Catholic right of any consequence. By "right" you're talking about schizmatic groups such as SSPX. The rest of the Church is just Catholic. His, and your attempt to put Catholics who believe the Teaching Magisterium of the Church into a right-wing definition is feeble. There is no resurgence. Your "resurgence" is the same old socialism rearing it's ugly head for one last breath before it succumbs.

SHYSTER LIES AGAIN: "...although it is somewhat amusing to see the hate mongers wallowing in their negativity...."

Hate mongers? Where are they? The liberal snake always whines when it gets stepped on--"hate, fear, hate, fear, hate, fear...."

You're a whiner Shyster.

"McZero?" hahahahahaha the only candidate that has a zero to start is name is 0bama! So I'd say you properly labeled him McZero.

SHYSTER WHINES SOME MORE: "Doesn't make much sense to post on Katherine's blog if you are totally against Obama..."

So once again Marxists pretending to be Catholic want to suppress free speech.

And then there's the brilliant Sean.

SEAN LIES AS WELL: "Amen, Shiloh! They have nothing to contribute to a civil discussion and its shows."

You pinheads cannot and have not had any kind of a civil discussion since I have been here. You're basically all too illiterate to intelligently defend your positions.

You said months ago, "proportionate reasons." I asked what they are and not one of you dunces could delineate a single one.

I listed my proportionate reasons for voting for McCain. You don't have any to justify voting for Obama and you want to whine, "They have nothing to contribute...."

You crack me up Sean. Go get back on the dunce's stool and quit pretending that you know something.

KURT SAID: blah blah blah blah ad nauseam.

Kurt, you're a liar as well. You silly little snake. You got caught lying weeks ago and conveniently disappeared. Now here you are assbiting. That's about all you're good for Kurt.

Rustler45 said...

"But this time around, the faithful aren't buying it."

You mean liberals, not faithful. Another lie.

"According to the polls..."

We've already been around the pike on "the polls." They are a set up and nothing more than leftist propaganda.

"Catholics have consistently named the economy as the number one concern affecting their votes this year."

That's another lie. Any Catholic who puts the economy ahead of the moral issues should just go be a Baptist and quit claiming to be Catholic.

Rustler45 said...

DEMOCATHOLIC SAID: "Are you confused? Probably so. That's why you should probably not be presenting yourself as a moral authority."

She isn't confused. You are. Material support is still a mortal sin. As far as mortal sin is concerned when you are facing judgment whether or not you are excommunicated is not going to make the slightest difference in the temperature of your final resting place. Mortal sin, in fact does excommunicate you from the sacraments.

It's best if you don't try to make YOURSELF a moral authority.

Rustler45 said...

DEMO SAID: "Not only are they intellectually lazy, they are also ideologically empty."

Well, well, well, a homo who thinks normal sex is perverted has just spoken.

You my little moron friend, are intellectually dishonest. You call yourself "Catholics for Democracy" and you don't even understand that Democracy is intrinsically evil. You claim to be a philisophy major yet you don't know anything about Aristotle and couldn't comprehend a thing I told you. You are a left-wing Marxist liberal and cannot grasp the contradiction of that with the Teaching of The Church yet you call someone else ideologically empty?

DEMO SAID: The McCain camp and those who support him have no positive agenda to offer the American people.

You nutcase, I haven't heard a single person who has come here against Obama support McCain. We are not supporting McCain we are voting against Obama. How many times have I told you that I am not a Republican? Yet you continue this stupid axx diatribe about McCain.

I have told you my proportionate reasons for voting for a candidate that has moral problems. They fit with the bishops directions on voting. Yours do not.

I HAVE ASKED YOU AND KATHERINE OVER AND OVER WHAT YOUR PROPORTIONATE REASONS ARE AND I GET NO ANSWER. BUT YOU CALL THOSE OF US AGAINST OBAMA, INTELLECTUALLY LAZY? YOU ARE A DUNCE. YOU HAVE NO PROPORTIONATE REASONS BECAUSE THERE ARE NO REASONS THAT A CATHOLIC CAN JUSTIFY VOTING FOR OBAMA. HE IS EVIL PERSONIFIED.

DEMO WHINES AND WHINES: "The only thing they have is the ability to scare and bully people after voting for the camp who does."

So, you're scared and bullied? You're a blatant sissy and you're full of bxllshxt Demo.

Next you're probably going to tell me that Sean, Shyster, and Kurt are not intellectually lazy nor ideological dunces.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAaaa

If those three bozos are your examples of great intellect, I need say no more.

Rustler45 said...

CATTY SAID: "Studies have shown that the kinds of policies that Obama wants to push through would reduce the rates of abortion."

And just what nitwit studies are those Catty? That is what is called a logical fallacy. It's name is "Studies have shown."

You don't have any studies you liar.

CATTY SAID: "Poverty and abortion are inherently intertwined."

No they're not.

And you are going to tell us about intellectually lazy. You must be... No don't tell me... You're a blonde!

CATTY SAID "Outlawing abortion doesn't fix the glaring flaws in our society that lead women to abortion."

So, you're pro-choice. That makes you a liar one more time. You don't care about abortion. You are just another lying Marxist.

Now let me tell you. Write this down you dunce. OUTLAWING ABORTION OUTLAWS ABORTION. IT'S PURPOSE IS TO OUTLAW ABORTION NOT TO FIX THE "GLARING FLAWS" IN OUR SOCIETY.

Rustler45 said...

CATTY'S SOLUTIONS TO FIXING THE FLAWS IN SOCIETY.

1. KILL ALL OF A SINGLE GENERATION.

2. MAKE ABORTION LEGAL SO THAT PEOPLE QUIT HAVING ABORTIONS

Rustler45 said...

SHYSTER SAID: "Yes it's true, pro Obama sites/blogs are just so much more positive and entertaining....

Well dodobrain, you got it half right. You ARE entertaining. You geniuses say the stupidest things. And like good comedians you do it with such straight faces.

For example: "The Catholic right is also flummoxed by a resurgence....blah blah blah."

Hahahahahaha "flummoxed" and "resurgence." Somebody slipped him a couple of big words and he just had to use them even though it was BS.

The strangest thing about you morons is that you are never able to put up the slightest intelligent defense. You think throwing out a couple of big words makes you look smart. Oh I forgot, what was that other one that nitwit used? "Myopic" hahahahahahaaaaaa. YOU ARE entertaining.

Rustler45 said...

AN ANONYMOUS COWARD SAID: "Can you ban IPs? I'd suggest banning Rustler's...

You whiney coward. Slither back under the door you came from. You're another liberal who constantly whines for freedom of speech yet when you get the chance you do everything in your power to suppress the views of those who disagree with you. You're a hypocrite. You're a hater of free speech and you are another one who also yells "racist" without the slightest proof aren't you? Fact is you're a racist and a liar. You are a coward who posts anonymously. You have discredited your traitorous self before you have even begun.

SNAKEOIL SAID: "...because he does not have a well thought out argument."

You weasly lying pervert. You wouldn't know a well thought out argument if you saw one. Otherwise you'd be critquing Katherine's useless unthought out diatribes she calls articles. Every liberal I know is constantly whining, "no substance." It's just an excuse to censor free speech which is hated so badly by the left wing communists that frequent this blog and so many blogs on the internet.

Now go crawl back into you garbage filled hole and quit bothering people. You coward.

Michael J said...

rustler45,
I was going to jump in and reply to those who seem to have forgotten what it means to be a Catholic Christian and the teachings of the Church. Or even the thought of free speech. It appears you covered.

It does show their narrow mindedness when they complain when someone make comments that they don’t agree.

Pax tecum

Anonymous said...

Hey Michael,

You would serve the McCain cause and the pro-life movement better if you did not endorse the filth that Rustler45 posts. Just a suggestion.

catie said...

I'm not saying I'm pro-choice. I'm pointing out that abortion is a symptom of what's wrong with our society. Banning it is only like putting a Band Aid over a gunshot wound gushing arterial blood. It's not fixing the actual problem. Don't you want the ACTUAL problem fixed along with banning abortion?

What I'm saying is that I would love to see a candidate who has all social justice issues in mind. Obama is pro-choice, but cares about the poor. John McCain is anti-abortion, pro-embryonic stem cell research, but doesn't give two hoots about the conditions that lead women to abortion. THAT needs to be fixed, too. I want a candidate that can do both.

Rustler, I don't think you care about finding a candidate who wants to help the poor or end an extremely unjust war. I don't think you care about funding research on adult stem cells. I don't think you care about helping women who find themselves pregnant and in adverse circumstances. For a lot of these women, abortion isn't a choice. They see it as their only, last-ditch option. Isn't that tragic in and of itself, where a woman is in such dire conditions that she thinks her only option is killing her baby? Abortion is about fear, panic and hopelessness. Rustler, care about both the BABY and the MOTHER, please, because I honestly don't think you do. You'd definitely save the baby by caring more about the mother via counseling and support.

Have compassion for both. You don't sound like you do. I know I do. I counsel women against it all the time, and I help women find the help they need. What I don't see is enough laws and government programs that help these women, or mothers in general. I want that. You're not a woman, so you don't understand the struggle between juggling a career and a family. The message we receive is that it's either have a career, or have a family. I also want opportunities for women to have affordable, safe childcare at their university, near their job. Single-income households aren't an option in this era. I also want men to be men and support their women and children, because that's also lacking in some segments of today's society.

Abortion is a symptom, not the cause, of the problem in our society. Go look up the reasons why women have abortions. I have heard some heartbreaking reasons why women are considering abortion. Abortion is a very real, very tragic symptom of the wrongs in our society.

Can you at least agree that women in adverse situations need to have access to funds, support, education, counseling, etc to help their children? Or should they and their children be unhealthy and malnourished without access to basic health care necessities?

You can't be pro-life and then forget about the baby after it's born. That's not what being pro-life is about.

catie said...

And actually, there are many several studies linking poverty and abortion, and race and abortion, so it's not a logical fallacy at all. YOU are intellectually lazy. If you sample abortion statistics, they disproportionately affect minority communities - which generally happen to be significantly poorer than their white counterparts. Look at the CDC breakdown of abortion by race, news articles in general, or find access to JSTOR.

57% of abortions occur in women who are economically disadvantaged. One of the top reasons that people have abortions is because they cannot afford a(nother) child. You also have tidbits like this "Half of the women are 25 or older; most already have a child" from an MSNBC article from January. Surprising, eh? It's not just drunk teens and college students getting pregnant after a booze-induced one-nighter...

Studies also link reduction of abortion to things like education, access to health care, access to social programs, fathers having jobs, and family planning.

Rustler45 said...

"Don't you want the ACTUAL problem fixed along with banning abortion?"

Wake up. Abortion is the ACTUAL PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

catie said...

Abortion is symptomatic of the larger problems in our society, plain and simple - it's CAUSED by other things. Poverty, inadequate education, inadequately imparting morality to the youth, inequity between sexes - these are some of the problems that abortion is a symptom of.

Being a symptom doesn't make it any less of a problem, though.

Excessive bruising and hemorrhaging can be symptomatic of illnesses like hemophilia, for instance. There's an underlying cause, but the bleeding is still an issue. You can treat the patient with clotting agents to prevent excessive bruising and bleeding in the first place. You also need to heal the bruising and bleeding that's already there, however.

You need to fix both...

catie said...

By the way, Popes tend to be to the left on the economic spectrum.

Anonymous said...

True practicing Catholics don't do what you are doing. Go to confession fast and pray. Stop what you are doing, before it's too late. True Catholics know "An eternity is a long time to be wrong...